The Musical Innertube - Volume 2, Number 172 - Sean Ross on Radio and Yacht Rock

JOHN

Hi folks, Don and I, as you know are both radio veterans and love radio still today. That's why we are really happy to welcome Sean Ross to the Musical Innertube. Sean is a radio business researcher, programming consultant, conference speaker and a veteran of radio trade journalism at Billboard, Radio and Records, M Street Journal and elsewhere. And for more than a decade, his writings have appeared as the Ross on Radio newsletter. It's got news, it's got analysis, opinion and trend articles. It's always fascinating. I read it faithfully, and reading Ross on Radio is like listening to the whole North American radio world at once. Welcome Sean Ross.

SEAN

Thank you, John. Great to be here.

DON

Good to have you, Sean.

JOHN

We've wanted to have you on for such a long time, so let me ask you to talk for a moment about what radio looks like as of January 2025. We've got video, we've got streaming, got so many alternative media today that they're not alternative anymore. It turns out that some people look at radio as alternative. I'm wondering how does radio, specifically radio that plays music, how does that look these days?

SEAN

Radio is bigger than you think, and not as big as it was.  I always use the term “diminished but not demolished." The problem is radio is still the biggest piece of audio listening. At least 12 plus, maybe not for any self-respecting 17-year-old, but you know for a few of those too. What it's not is what it was for us. No one's listening with the radio under the pillow, but no one's listening with Spotify the pillow, either. If anything has that kind of purchase on people today, it’s TikTok.

DON

When I was in radio all those many years ago, the top 100, no matter whether you were doing it on your own at a radio station or following Billboard, was based on sales. And I am assuming that sales of singles certainly and even albums are not a factor much anymore. Is it streaming that now determines what is a popular song?

SEAN

It's streaming. For record labels, it's responding to TikTok. We always say, REM wouldn't get 7 albums to have a breakthrough now. If REM were signed, someone would be on the phone with Michael Stipe telling him to do more TikToks.

DON

Yeah, true.

JOHN

Sean. So, what do you think? What’s something really interesting that's going on in radio right now.

SEAN

I'm working on my big annual issue I’m sending to stations about the year. The biggest trend, interestingly, seems kind of obscure in, except if you're in the right market for it, which is Spanish language stations with Spanish language jocks and English language music. It's the newest. It's about a year. It's the newest, most interesting thing. Successful in Miami within weeks. And now it's being copied around the country. The other thing that was interesting to me last year was top 40. We didn't see it in Philadelphia, but in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco. A number of places. Top 40 kind of began to look like its old self again. You heard Sabrina Carpenter. Had Chapel Roan. It had big hits that everybody liked. And it had Hozier. Nobody could have anticipated Hozier suddenly having the hit record.

JOHN

It's interesting, isn't it, that he had the take me to church song, which was a pretty big hit. You'll know better than I do about it. And then I was listening to CBC. Just two weeks ago and they have their hits of the year for Canada, so they are. They are quite different from us.  Hoser was up there at #2.

SEAN

Is something we're seeing now. Xpn is, yeah, the stations like that. Are are actually a route to Top 40.

JOHN

You know, that's interesting. That's kind of.

SEAN

You know for, you know, for a nullar kaha for a teddy swims. You know, it doesn't happen much, but. Triple-A progressive radio as we know it now. Has these Brigadoon mountain sweaters suddenly, you know, suddenly people who you think are too good for the radius are suddenly on Top 40.

JOHN

Yes. Yes. And we're speaking, ladies and gentlemen about WXPN, which is the radio station at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, which is one of the flagship stations for a genre called AAA. Some people call. Americana. But that could mean almost anything as. Probably would tell you. And yes, they were playing a hosier before he had any hits, and he's sort of, and actually, I guess they were playing Taylor Swift before she had any non country. It's interesting how things slide into each other, isn't it, Sean?

SEAN

Well, and you know, a lot of it. Is just a function of label marketing campaigns and we're going to talk about form.

Speaker

And.

SEAN

How far designated and that's often. Just a function of label can be insert, label, marketing plants or what works for the industry. Interesting.

DON

I would think too that in, in recent years radio has been as important as it ever was to the country market. The radio listening to country stations and and the appeal of country artists over the radio. Is still pretty strong, wouldn't you say?

SEAN

Country has the best of both worlds. They have people. Like. Brian. You know, have very much come from streaming and not radio, and they've got artists like Morgan Wallin who have been helped like both. And you know, right now country has, you know, a lot of sort of fast breaking novelty songs. Kind of start on the web, but happen on radio very quickly so. It also probably helps the best relationship still with the record companies in Pop the record companies at this moment care more about streaming and they certainly. Regard tick tock as the gatekeeper. Not right.

JOHN

Can I ask you about how Beyoncé's foray into country? Sort of realign things did. Did it have that kind of impact?

SEAN

Certainly in terms of introducing her boozy. You know who went on to have a much bigger hit than she did. It had a footprint. It wasn't a big hit. Everyone was waiting to see if country would play a Beyoncé record. You know it really. Lasted for. Six weeks at every format.

DON

Interesting Taylor Swift started out in country, but she used definitely a crossover artist. She has appealed to all audiences and her appeal reaches worldwide. So. You know what's the status now of crossover? So people who start in one genre and just explode across because Beyoncé didn't do that. Is a big artist. Every place but country she tried to get in there and it didn't quite work. So what else do we have out there? That's that's crossing genres.

SEAN

These days. Records start from streaming and formats. Decide who wants them.

JOHN

Well, that's really interesting.

SEAN

Certainly hosier. 888 was their first. But by a matter of days, you know, two Swedes was on some Top 40 stations with it in three or four days because it had streaming numbers and 'cause. It was an up tempo pop record. That radio could deal with. It's an old fashioned. 4/4 pop. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, there aren't a lot of those these days.

JOHN

So Speaking of genres, let's talk about Yacht rock. You had a December piece. And it had. Title. Something like how yacht rock almost sunk Top 40. And and I know that yacht rock as a designation of a genre, it's about 20 years old. As we sit here, I think a bunch of folks at channel 101 coined the term and it's become not just a term of art, but something that kids say. The street. I've heard people talk about how that's yacht rock.

SEAN

And and still talking about it 20 years later.

JOHN

Amazing. Yeah, and it.

SEAN

Yeah, it took hold. You know, of course it's an artificial. Show distinction, but you know it's. Yeah, I hear it from people who were there 40 years ago. I hear it from people who are learning it. And you know who you know are learning it with hipster irony and you know, I've learned it from the people who I've heard it from, the people who live through it the first.

DON

Now you can't see me, but I'm raising my hand. I look through it.

SEAN

Yeah.

DON

I was a Jock, 7980 and 81 when what a fool believes ride like the wind. All those yacht rock songs were were invented. And. Musical. But I will tell you, I remember being on the air in like 1980 and thinking to myself, God, how how boring is this Top 40?

JOHN

In that era.

SEAN

We didn't have the name Yacht Rock. But there was a radio research version, one of one of the early ones who did focus groups and people, certainly. Did. Everything sounded like The Doobie Brothers. All of a sudden. He coined the name Gene Burnout. Yeah, yeah.

JOHN

Genre burnhouse interesting, yes, and it would.

SEAN

You know all the Michael McDonald sound like sign projects is where it started.

DON

Yeah. Well, because one of the things that we said definitely we could peg a record. And it's release date based on whether or not the backgrounds were sung by Michael McDonald or Stevie Nicks. They they seem to be on every 1980s early 80s release singing background. In fact, SCTV did a big deal on that where they had Rick Moranis dressed up as Michael McDonald, driving across town, running in and singing a long way to go.

SEAN

Right.

DON

Then running back out to his car. And going to another studio to sing another background.

SEAN

Imagine if Rick had had the music career instead of the comedy career or the DJ career. He started out as a DJ.

JOHN

Somehow I don't know why he's got a great voice and the gift of gab and all those things.

SEAN

Umm.

JOHN

Could see where he'd be very comfortable in a music. Format at radio station he was.

SEAN

He was. Trump FM, which was the EWMMR of Toronto.

JOHN

Yeah.

SEAN

He once did a spot for brake repair place, to the tune of sundown.

DON

The Gordon Lightfoot song.

SEAN

And he sent it to Gordon Lightfoot for his approval. Instead the. Your imitation's pretty good, but your guitar playing is not good enough and I don't want people thinking it's my guitar player.

JOHN

If I find you've been creeping around up that stair.

SEAN

Yeah.

JOHN

So you. Or at least you. With the idea that there was this moment in in radio history where.

DON

There seemed to.

JOHN

Have been a vacuum. There's a racial aspect involved, I suppose. There was a vacuum of. Of music by African American artists for a moment. One may. A caval about that also because I mean I would say Al Jarreau fit right into Yacht Rock in a lot of ways. You know, bright certainly is a great artist and but you know. Why did that? Why did that momentary lull in the supply of that? Of music. Happened because Yacht Rock seems to have gone into the the. A little bit.

SEAN

Well, there's, you know, there's some irony at work here.

JOHN

There's lots of irony at work here.

SEAN

There there are multiple. Yes, you know it's different in Philly. You know, Philly has always loved R&B. Philly is where R&B came back to the radio and you know, we'll get to that in a second too. Going back to you know, how can yacht rock be steely dad Christopher Cross together, which I know is, you know, one of the things that always comes up.

JOHN

It's absolute insult to the 10th of the universe.

SEAN

Well, you know, let's let's consider disco in 1979. Disco was ain't no stopping us now. Great Wacker, you know, which nobody can detract from in any way. Mm. Shape or. Make it you know which is a deservedly lost 45.

DON

Yes.

JOHN

You know, and you know.

SEAN

And it was push push in the Bush. Yo ya rock. Many thanks. Many thanks singer-songwriter is many things. In the 70s, it was Elton John, James Taylor, Billy Joel and Bread, and they're all in different places now in terms of how we look at them. So 79. Disco. You know we have disco demo. The artists like Wings and Rod Stewart, who were just visiting. They go. I can't have their careers in eight different type of records. Sister Sledge. You know, we barely hear from again. McFadden and Whitehead, we don't hear from again. Chic. You know, except as producers, we don't. From again.

Speaker

Wow. I.

SEAN

Know. And part of the subtext. Is, you know, we're going to get away from Funky town push, push in the Bush and we're going to have quality music now. And the irony. Is that you know there had. Part of the bandwagon. Think included the Doomy brothers. The Doomy brothers did a 12 inch disco remix of what a full beliefs.

JOHN

When I first heard that record. I just wanna say when I first heard that record I had. Check my dosage. I you know, I said. This is not this is a disco record. And I realized, well, you know, they were making 12 inch disco versions of everything. It really worked.

SEAN

They were making 12 inch disco versions of everything, and the truth is. That's like disco came to encompass. Eddie uptempo R&B record that happened to be danceable. You know, even if it was really. Even if it was really straightforward, I would be disco also became a marketing tool for the dubious. It became a marketing tool. Doctor hook. Disco. Yeah, the disco movement ends at radio. It doesn't really go away 'cause next year. You have funky town, but you know as a format.

JOHN

Right, right. Right, right. Yeah.

SEAN

It goes away. Philly had a radio station, the old Wibbage Wizard 100. Bab station had been Top 40 and then just disco, and then soon after that, I think it was religious. Wfil the Big Am Top 40. What are the all time greats had pretty much gone adult contemporary? By 1980, in 1980, because of the disk go back a Wi-Fi 92, the only FM Top 40 briefly becomes rock. They become essentially wmmr with jingles.

DON

Right, yeah.

SEAN

And that doesn't change until. Hot hits WCAU comes along in 81 so. Philly doesn't really have the Top 40 station. Houston doesn't have the Top 40 station St. Doesn't have a Top 40 station. Big station in Philly is Magic 103. Which started out as a soft rock station. And evolved to what we would now call adult contemporary. Everybody wants to be adult contemporary or they want to be able rock. Don't want to be Top 40. And. You're with The Doobie Brothers. You had this music that could be adult contemporary. Could be album rock. It certainly does go underneath, you know, and certainly R&B influenced but. It it still fit everywhere and? Then you had all the imitators. Then you had all of the side projects that. Michael McDonald, you know so generously interviewed too. And you had Christopher Cross, but you also had air supply. You also had Paul Davis.

JOHN

I go crazy.

DON

Oh yeah.

SEAN

You also had. I've never been to me by Charlene, Sir. Yeah, my least favorite hit song of all time.

DON

I used to do a thing on on the air. Where I had a contest saying I'm gonna play record and you got to tell me what it is. Is it Firefall? Is it Pablo Cruz? There were like 3 or 4 different. Bands in there that put out records that sounded exactly the same. They all seem to use and I know that the the yacht rock documentary that was on HBO. Tended to show that this group of musicians that worked with The Doobie Brothers and all these other groups, Christopher Cross and all the others, all the backgrounds were like the the new Wrecking crew, the new group of of people that were studio musicians that worked on everybody's.

Speaker

Record.

SEAN

Jake Reagan.

DON

And they made. They made him sound all the same, yes.

SEAN

Everybody had a flute. Everybody in R&B. Yeah.

JOHN

Oh yeah.

SEAN

Had the time to.

JOHN

Well, so to do the hustle.

Speaker

Yeah.

JOHN

But you are the woman.

DON

Yeah.

JOHN

You are a woman.

DON

That starts out with a flute that starts, starts out with a flute that the flute is in the intro of.

SEAN

One strange way.

DON

Yeah, strange way. Tell me you love me, yeah.

JOHN

Well, I want to say I.

DON

Yeah.

JOHN

Want to say also that some of the disco versions actually were pretty. I mean nothing but the girls missing you. They did that in a disco version, which I think is tremendous as a song.

SEAN

Yeah, it's the definitive version.

JOHN

Yeah, I think so. I think it completely is EC. Original that's not always true, but that one is certainly. I think Stevie Wonder's redo of all I do, which is a dance redo of a very old song from the 60s. Definitely. So I mean, yeah.

SEAN

Bobby Pointer Heaven must have sent you.

JOHN

Heaven must have sent you. Absolutely.

SEAN

Yeah, I. Yeah, I like the original again. But yeah, I love the rebirths.

DON

Let me let me. In one more R&B. Reference here that goes along with it. Was listening to an interview. I believe it was on NPR just a couple of days ago with Sterling K Brown, the actor who was on This Is Us and some other television shows. And he was talking about, you know, how much he liked his father. And he said. Growing up, his dad would take him out to do. He would take him out to work on the car and take him out to, you know, go fishing and other things. And he say my dad would always have the radio on and he'll always have his Michael McDonald on. You know minute by minute and all that other stuff. And I'm thinking here's a black family. Michael McDonald famously, I guess, has always appealed to the black community and always seemed more of an R&B artist. Than any kind of adult contemporary artist or something like that.

SEAN

Michael McDonald of Harlow God's whale. There have always been rivers crossover.

JOHN

Oh yeah.

Speaker

Plus.

SEAN

Everybody really does listen to everything.

JOHN

Yes. Now this is a wonderful point. Thank you.

SEAN

And. And you know it's it's more than ever now. But you know, I worked at an R&B station. I worked at an R&B old station that played Tommy James Crystal Blue Persuasion. I didn't play it, but Carly Simon, you're so vain.

JOHN

Oh, very popular. Oh, yeah.

SEAN

In Chicago as well.

JOHN

So I'll just tell a short story about this, which is my the guy used to make my pages at the Philadelphia Inquirer. Vernon. Very close friend of mine, African. I invited him to go see Steely Dan across the river in Camden, so we went ahead. We parked the car. And as we're walking into the venue, Vernon grabs my arm and says now John. When we turn the. All you're going to see are brothers. Just be ready. OK. And I didn't realize until I turned the corner and realized I was about the only Irish American pale face for miles. How that Steely Dan was serious crossover, and I mean serious, at least for the people in that place. And they were all ages, and crossover is a strange thing, you know. Shows you how little we really know about the imaginative lives of people. 'Cause, you're right, everybody. Everybody listens to everything. You.

SEAN

Know it shows you music is the unifier. Yes. And you know, and that it works both ways. And you know, when we get my. In the discussions about who belongs in the Hall of Fame. And you can tell that they are really stalking horse discussions for talking about something else. It's too bad that music is being used to take people away from each other. Like everything else, it's too bad that music has become. In many cases, like every other toxic discussion 'cause, it was a. And it was something that built them. But the end, it was something that built understanding. And I think in moments of optimism, it still is. Certainly if you look at the late zeroes. And early teens. You know, everybody likes usher. Everybody liked dynamite by Taio Cruz. Chris Rock was interviewed for the top for the movie top five about him, older guys debating their top five rappers, and Chris said mostly my kids. Bob Ford at the damp moment. Did and it united? You know united like I can I get united mothers and daughters?

DON

The Top 40 that I grew up with was really crossover. Remember lonely days and only nights by country artists.

SEAN

I used to knives Freddy Fender.

DON

Yeah, wasted days and wasted nights. Thank you. I remember Frank Sinatra on the Top 40. It was really, really the Top 40 sellers everywhere and then eventually by the time I got into radio in the 70s. That having demographics and this station is only going to appeal to this group of people and they started to break things up a little bit and then it was like, well, this is AOR, we're not going to play, you know. And again, AOR started out with WMMR and. Wplj out in New York and stuff like that. That was playing classical and Frank Sinatra and and the Grateful Dead, you know, so.

SEAN

LR played Stevie Wonder, yeah. Male or? Earth, wind and fire, right? The first brothers Johnson album.

DON

Right. And and somehow that got demographed to death right around the time that we're talking right about the time of Yacht Rock we started having.

SEAN

Well, the disco.

JOHN

Absolutely. Just go.

SEAN

Backlash happened in Rock radio first.

JOHN

It's so interesting about the notion you said something in passing that I want to echo, which is, you know. That this music you were talking about kind of music of of 30 years ago. These songs are all in different places now in terms of how we look at them. This is this is just quoting something you said in passing, Sean. I'm fascinated by that process. I love to hear. I'm a. Sometimes younger people come up and because they see that I'm million years old and I'll go. Boy. What was it about your music? Really, love. We really love Janice. No, they start this whole thing. And I realize they like the same artists. May like different songs though. And that's what I'm really fascinated in is that, you know, the pantheon is changing with the generation, you know, and.

Speaker

Go.

SEAN

Yeah. It was show at a different place in the Pantheon. Yeah, in 1977, it was one more good cut on the stranger, but it was no Italian restaurant. It. You know, it wasn't only the good dining. Yeah, it's the one that, you know, an 18 year old might know first.

JOHN

Now, yes. Yeah. I mean, the other day I heard on a college radio station people talking, OK. So what's your favorite Beatles? I thought that was interesting, but it's something I still hear people talk about. The street a lot. I see like 7 year old kids going down. Come to. Other uh WH, which I think is is great. That's song. Let's think about. That song gets the heck played out of it still. You know, it might not have been the one that you would have chosen to do that at the time because there were other other things getting played and then and on this radio station I was listening to, they said. Well, my favorite one is hey, Bulldog. Everybody goes. Yeah, that's so. Hey, Bulldog and well, they play the heck out of that. Just love it.

SEAN

His hair up and. One I watch yell at some. You know, I made my dad take me to the theater to see yellow submarine four times. Then I got the soundtrack also. Sirius XM. About 10 years. On their Top 40 channel. Decided to play that as a current. There's a way of promoting the New Beatles channel.

DON

Yeah, I I I remember listening to a live recording recently of Dave Grohl and the Foo Fighters, and when he decided to do this live recording The Beatles tune that he picked to do was a bulldog. He said he did it because that's one of the songs he grew up with.

SEAN

Well, I. I've I've got one more Beatles for you. Oh bloody oh. You know, they came a wedding. You know, a wedding perennial. Yo was reissued, but not a hit in the 70s.

JOHN

Yeah, I was at a wedding of of 30 year olds earlier in the year where they concluded the whole wedding with a gala playing of all you need is love. And I say all these 30s and 20 year old people with their arms around one another swaying to. You know.

SEAN

I wanted. I want to about it's a few years ago and they were doing the candlelightings and when they had all the older aunts and uncles. Come up. The song that the DJ played that he thought was old people's music, which was to say 50.

Speaker

Yeah.

SEAN

Etta. Something's got a hold up. Which was never a. It was sampled by Avicii and it was sampled by a Florida and you know to that 20 something DJ that must have been what we.

DON

Were listening to back in the day.

SEAN

60 years ago. It wasn't.

JOHN

I'm sure there are other stories of how. Songs that got sampled became famous after they got sampled. To more people than ever, listen to them. I guess you just gave an example. Know. Something is used in a movie, something that's used in a promotion. Don't know, but you do see? Yeah.

Speaker

Well, songs come. Songs.

SEAN

Do come back through sings and sometimes they become rhyming up that hill.

DON

Oh, I know.

SEAN

But sometimes they become house. The Dutchie urged Olivia Newton John Twist of fate. They're used in other episodes of Stranger Things, and they never catch on to the second extent.

JOHN

Well, you know, I'm so glad you mentioned running up that hill. Was the show that played that that got that started?

SEAN

And your talents?

JOHN

That was stranger things because. My daughter called me up and said. Dad, do you? Do you know this woman? She does this song. About running up the hill and I go yes. If she does, one called and she goes Wuthering Heights. You're going to tell me weathering heights, I I thought to. I have gone to heaven, man, because no one had heard of that when I was, when I was in England, became #1, went back to the United States and people going. What is this garbage? I don't want to hear it, you know. But now it's a it. Thing you know, she's a thing.

SEAN

Kay Bush, or, you know, or. Which thought it was about Bennett's side.

JOHN

Right, right, right. Sean, you know you should come back. We we would have just so much fun because not only because Don and I lived through a lot of the stuff that you're talking about, but because you're really you have a great hold on. The really big picture, which is what is music doing? To foreign and with us. And I love the fact that you keep pop alive, that the unifying nature of music can prevail, or at least exert itself from time to time.

SEAN

Yeah, people. You know, people enjoy. Uh. When there is, you know, a Taylor Smith monoculture moment. Taylor has plenty of detractors, but she had many more people who liked. Caught up in it, and because she'd. Oh, yeah, go on through so many phases, you know, you couldn't cut pick and choose all. Right.

JOHN

You could choose the country Taylor.

SEAN

Yeah. You could choose you get into Taylor Smith Beatles. S. Comparisons at your peril, but certainly in terms of going through three distinctive phases, they share that.

JOHN

Absolutely, yeah, yeah. Sean Ross has been our. Ladies and gentlemen, we have had a remarkable half hour. We've covered so much stuff. And I never even got to say how much I love Steely Dan. I do. And shoot me. But we have enjoyed talking about genre, about music, about where all the changes come from, and and Sean, you have your finger on the pulse as always. I want to thank you for being on the musical winner tube.

SEAN

Thank you.

DON

And folks, if you'd. To follow Sean Ross on radio. Follow his columns week to week, month to month, year to year to find out what's happening at radio. You can do that. All you have to do is go to radio insight. That's radio IN. SIGHT. Dot com, forward slash Ross. On radio. That's radioinsight com Ross on radio. Thanks again Sean for being on the Musical Innertube today.

SEAN

Thank you, gentlemen.