The Musical Innertube - Volume 2, Number 167 - Nick Roman talks Willie Mays

JOHN 

Well folks, we are really happy today, because we have Mr. Nick Roman back once again. Now I could say a lot of things about NIck. I could say that he worked for public radio for many years in Southern California, that he's been a teacher, he's been a fine broadcaster. But really, what he's been is a great pal. So, we're going to talk about Willie Mays today, and we should talk about him. Willie Mays was one of the greatest, many people feel the single greatest all around ballplayer maybe of all time and we don't want to let that go without commenting on a great life in sports and an American life that bears looking at as well. So, Nick Roman, welcome. And I'm wondering, tell us about any memories you may have of Willie Mays to get started. 

NICK 

I have 3 in particular. I mean, you know, the overall arching one is the wisdom of kids who play streetball and it was we all knew Willie Mays was the greatest player in the history of baseball? You know, I was 10 and I knew. It. It was pretty easy to come to that conclusion, but my 3 great memories of that - and I'll start with the with the last one. I have a very clear memory of, because I did this on purpose, of Willie Mays hitting a home run at Candlestick Park. It was in ‘72 and it came a few weeks after Mays had been traded from the Giants to the Mets, and the Mets were coming back to San Francisco to play for the first time since that trade. And I happen to be up in the Bay Area, my sister had gone to UC Berkeley and lived in the area, and so I decided to go over to Candlestick - never been there before - to see this ball game. The Giants were a pretty lousy team that year. They had already traded Mays, which was a shock but not a shock, you know, he was not quite the ball player that he had been. But I wanted to see the spectacle and see who you know, who came out. And I wanted to, you know, say that I saw Willie Mays's first game back in San Francisco since the trade. So, he came up in the first inning and got a nice round of applause from the small crowd, about 18,000 were there that night, and he grounded out. And then he came up again later on and hit a fly ball and he was out. And then the third time he came up, I remember there were runners on base, and he hit a shot that went in over the left field fence that, to my eye, disappeared into the night and as far as I know is still flying. You know, it went into orbit. I had never seen a home run hit that hard, that far in my life, and that's still the case today, at least that I've seen in person. And it was amazing. The place went crazy even though it was, you know, a Giants home game. I remember Chris Speier, who was playing shortstop for the for the Giants at the time when Mays hit that ball, Speier  was in the crouch and came up as if “I might be able to snag this” - no. It just, it just vanished. And you know, I was lucky enough to see a number of the great home run hitters hit home runs in, you know, in person. When I was there, that’s the one that I really, really remember most of all. The other memory is that my dad came home some years earlier and gave me a baseball bat that he said had been given to him by a fella that he had worked with, who had been at spring training and Mays apparently had. As the story goes. I was told. That Mace had used that bat in spring training and chipped it. So there's a little chip around the barrel, but you know, was my dad making up the story? All I know is it said 24 on the handle. And I have since looked it up and I found out what kind of bat. Maze used during his career. Is that? It is that it's a. It's a Louisville. Certain model, certain size, certain length, and I've had it ever since. It's sitting behind me here. I just keep it around just to remember, you know, the great Willie Mays. And then my last memory, which was actually my first one was in this goes back to the wisdom of little kids. I was a baseball card collector. Still am when I can find him. And I always, you know, one of the kids in my neighborhood said, hey, the baseball cards are available. They've got them now in stock, down at the liquor. This is back in the days when there were such things as liquor stores and little kids used to go to liquor stores. 

DON 

Little kids could go in without getting. Yeah, yeah. 

NICK 

Buying liquor. All without getting hassled or anything like that. This was the. The only place that had them, they had baseball cards and we were down there like every day seeing if they would get an exact or something. 

JOHN 

Of course. 

NICK 

So we all went down and bought our first pack of the season. And I popped mine open. And there the first card on top was Willie Mays, and I turned to my friends and I said I'm done. I'm. I don't need to get any work cards this year. I'm done. 

Speaker 

Wow. 

NICK 

1. I got the top card and I have since been able to acquire, you know, three or four other Willie Mays baseball cards that I keep in a catalog somewhere in this office, but. Yeah, you know, just there's just amazing. Memories of of everything that Willie Mays was the way he played the kind. Was and it was very sad when we lost.

JOHN 

It seems to me that these days we have. I don't know if they used to call players like. Five tool players back then, but certainly he was 552 player. 

NICK 

Yeah. 

JOHN 

Was a candy baserunner a very good base dealer. He played perhaps the best center field of all time. He he had a very canny system of working with the pitcher. About where to pitch people in the count, the actual signaling for center and he would position himself in anticipation of what the batter would do if the batter was lucky enough to connect. Now, I've never heard of that. I don't. Never heard of? A center fielder running the game like that, usually for for our listeners, it's much more common that that the catcher calls the game and the catcher is getting signals from the bench. Manager saying so this one. Sort of this one now and the catcher. Relays that to the pitcher, but in fact there was this whole other layer. It really went catcher pitcher Willie Mays. And and then he would position himself to catch the ball. And if the player hit the ball where Billy Willie Mays wasn't and he couldn't catch it later, he would berate the pitcher. Did not pitch the right pitch. That's why I couldn't get to that ball. It's. I don't know we can. I we don't want to get also technical, but here's here's an insight into a player of very uncanny awareness and and and simply being able to strategize like that down to the pitch. Unbelievable. 

NICK 

No, I mean, he he understood the. He understood how to teach the game to others. Which is a rare quality amongst star players. Because sometimes they're so good they don't even know how it is that they they just sort of think. Well, I can do this. Why can't you? He was, you know, he was obviously a good teammate. You know, it's basically that the man on the giants and. And brought with him great success and great respect from everybody that was that played in the game. I mean, you look at how many All Star games he was in from the beginning to the end, he was always in the All Star game. 

JOHN 

1. You really?

Speaker 

Of. 

JOHN 

Course he was. 

NICK 

You know, you just sort of took that for granted. You know, first first ballot Hall of Fame. He wasn't unanimous, which is like madding, because obviously there some. Baseball writers back in those days who were just fools. But you know, there was some that didn't vote for Henry Aaron, either. And it makes no sense at all. But, you know, he was he was great. 

Speaker 

No. 

NICK 

After his career was over. Stayed in San Francisco and was, you know, routinely seen at the. You know, at at when it was Candlestick and then later on whatever they're calling the ballpark this week, Giant stadium in San Francisco, he was there all the time, always wearing a giant's cap, always talking to the young players. You know, on the Giants and and helping them through, you know what it was that that he did and you know. You just look at his stats. It's just amazing how many times he led the league in whatever it was you let the league in stolen bases. He literally. 

Speaker 

Right. 

NICK 

Lay in his last full season with the Giants. He led for the first time in his career. He led led the National League in Walk. 

Speaker 

NICK 

Which was crazy because Willie Mccovey was sitting behind him. 

Speaker 

Craigs. 

NICK 

OK, you want to do that? I. I guess that makes sense. Yeah. Fabulous. Fabulous ballplayer. 

DON 

It doesn't make sense to get past maze to get to McCoy, yeah. Most of of frankly, what I remember of Willie Mays is obviously the over the shoulder. In the World Series, that's the one that everybody knows about. But one of the things that intrigued me, and I did a little digging into it, I didn't really find a lot of, I'm I'm sure I there's a lot written on this that I just missed somehow that. Didn't. I did a cursory search, if you will, and I didn't get into the. Of it, but. It did seem like he wanted to coach or be involved in coaching after he stopped playing and he never got the opportunity to do that, and that always amazed me because as you said earlier, every team that he played on. Well, it was the Giants and the Mets. He play on any other. I don't think he played on any other team. 

NICK 

Well, he played a handful of ball games in the ***** Leagues, but that's it. 

DON 

Right. Yeah. But every team he played on, the other players that he was with benefited from his knowledge and he was happy to share it and happy to. To act as a de facto coach. But when it came time to actually hire him on the staff of either the Giants or the Mets or any other team, that didn't happen. And I don't know if Nick you were or John have any insight into that. I was kind of unsuccessful in finding out why that didn't work happen. 

NICK 

I don't know, you know. What may have been going on back then? You know, I mean, obviously he was a presence around the Giants during spring training and during the regular season. Maybe he preferred, de facto, you know. Coaching position rather than actually be on the coaching staff. But he was certainly a presence with the Giants for the entire rest of his life. 

JOHN 

It seems that since we're talking about his presence. With the Giants, I do want to, you know. Think about, you know, highlights in his. I mean it is sort of a highlight film. You can look at the old. Films of him making great catches against Victoria were there's a one where he, I think the one that I keep remembering is it's at Candlestick, they have that God awful chicken wire fence, yeah. 

NICK 

Chain link. Yep, he's. And he goes up with yeah. 19. I believe it was 19. 70 or 71 I'm not sure of the year, but yeah, Bobby Bonds. Barry's dad was playing right field. Know the one you're. About yes. It it was that catch. You can catch it. You can do it on on YouTube cause I've seen it a zillion times. You just put in maze, catch candle stick. Bobby bonz. And it's gonna show you somebody hit a hit. A shot to right field. And like John was saying, they had. This is so crazy a chain link fence as the outfield fence. You know, not like you couldn't get your spikes caught up in that thing and tear a leg up, which is the kind of stuff that could happen. Maze is, I think, at the time he's 38 or 39 years old. Bobby Bonds goes back and he looks like he's got the ball. He's gonna catch it up against the fence and maze comes flying into the picture. And you know, sort of. Source past bonds in one hands it and smashes into the into the fence and somehow comes up unharmed. It's just. It is amazing. I mean to me that catch is is greater than the one in the World Series. Obviously you know against the Cleveland Indians and in 51 excuse me, 54 in a poll grounds in New York. 

JOHN 

Unbelievable. 

NICK 

Is amazing because that weirdly shaped stadium he's running forever in a day. Mean practically running out of the. The ball and then turns and turns it into a double play, which was the other thing. Was amazing about it. 

JOHN 

Yeah, but this the fro is just about. Great as the catch as they all can say, you know. 

Speaker 

Cancel. 

NICK 

Yeah. 

JOHN 

So he he goes to San. With the team and this is something that happened. The Dodgers moved West. And the Giants moved West. After a 1950s in which a New York team almost always won the World Series, usually the Yankees. But the the Dodgers finally broke through in 55, and Mesa's own team won in 54. So he goes out to the West Coast. And. You can't really say he was welcomed with open arms by San. 

Speaker 

So. 

JOHN 

I don't mean the fans. I mean the city. There was something about him and that city. I realized. Made it his his his home afterwards. But there was race was involved. What have you heard about? Because it he should have been welcomed with adulation where he was as he was everywhere else. But somehow it's a little cool in San Francisco. 

NICK 

Yes, you know, at the time, I mean, people think of San Francisco as this sort of you know. Liberal bastion today. Umm. Certainly, even back in those days, you know, full of free thinkers, you know, and you had, you know, the all the rock music that started there and, you know, in the in the 60s and and then the comedians and the hungry eye and all that kind of stuff. Going on. Yes. You know Carol Dota at the strip club and you know a lot of things. 

JOHN 

Cheryl Joe dot dodo dot yeah. 

NICK 

So a lot of things going on, but there were parts of the city that were. 

Speaker 

Yeah. 

NICK 

You know. Pretty, you know. Snooty. 

Speaker 

Yeah. 

NICK 

And not especially welcoming to even the most famous black ball player in America. And he had trouble buying a house. A particular house that he had wanted up on a hill and in a neighborhood in San Francisco. There was some opposition to it. I. I know that there is a documentary that has been on MLB Network and I think it's been, you know, fine. That sort of recounts all of that because it required the mayor to sort of step in and say what's going on here. 

Speaker 

Anne. 

NICK 

But you know, it was true, at least. And and I think also that the people in San Francisco didn't embrace him in the same way that they later embraced other ballplayers who followed. Orlando Cepeda in particular. 

JOHN 

He felt overshaded by Orlando Cepeda as a matter of fact in terms of. 

NICK 

It came out. Right. You know Peter had. 

JOHN 

Just, yeah. 

NICK 

Mays was not as I mean. He was outgoing amongst his teammates, but not really. Of like an A flamboyant but. A spectacular player, obviously, but Cepeda had a. A big personality, that sort of, you know, grabbed the room and then the following season, Willie Mccovey comes up and he's just, you know, fabulous. And from the mid season on for the Giants. So you know it it. I don't wanna say the maze was really, you know, like not taking, almost taking taken for granted. But it was almost as if he's an established. Star and let's look at the next new thing. You know, it was different in Los Angeles for Colfax and Drysdale because they were not big stars. Superstars, until they came to Los Angeles and then Colfax just blossomed into this great star. And the same with with Russell. It was sort of like, well, yeah, Willie Mays. He's. But look at this kid. You know, so there were, you know, the the there was a there was a different sort of appreciation for Cepeda and from a covenant that was from a Mays. It's too bad because you know, in this he was. Just he was unreal. Unreal, great. 

DON 

JOHN 

I think people ought to watch also talk about things they ought to find on television. Obviously, the MLB channel has a lot of of great stuff on maze and this year have have really to their credit, ever since Bayes passed away. They've been running a lot of documentaries about him. There's a 2010 interview that they're running this week as we speak with Willie Mays. By Bob Costas on a show called. 24 If you want to see the real maze. Whenever you ask him a question about what was happening On this date or how did that play happen, you see the real race because first of all, here's a guy 79 and he has detailed memory. Knows where everybody was on the field. He has. He has such an amazing penetrating. Strategic mind. He talks about what we were going to do this way to make sure that they couldn't do that and this is what baseball is about is the invisible strategy. He was a master of it and I am. I am. You know, he was talking about how. Yeah. Bob Gibson knocked him down all the time with pitches, but he wasn't scared of him, he said. You know? He said. Bob Gibson and and Koufax were the two best pitchers I ever. Which one would expect him to say, but the only one I was really afraid of? **** raddatz. 

Speaker 

Yeah. 

JOHN 

'Cause. So I mean, here's a man who has this incredible, detailed, granular memory all these years later. He last he played his last game. Of almost 40 years ago. 

NICK 

41 yeah, 73. 

JOHN 

And yeah, 41 years. Yeah, and. And. And that's how he played. I mean we we think about the things that he could do physically and of course the record is there. The wonderful steals, the amazing home runs, the four home runs in Milwaukee. And and his joy at, oh, I don't know, winning the 1954 World Series. And there are and also I think he was on base when Bobby Thompson hit the shot, heard a while in the world in 51 and you see this young kid sleeping. For joy. Hands that air. Dancing around not knowing what and those. Those are the days which you did not do those things. Those were those were days in which you didn't show people up. You didn't. You could show joy, but it had to. Within. And course, Mays didn't come from there. He came from somewhere else. Where you did show pleasure in. In what you did and what your team did. But you see, it really adds even at 79 he had quick responses. He he set the scene. He showed what he was trying to do. Explained what his system was. That's really amazing too. 

NICK 

That 54 year old series and he played in four World Series, 51 and 54 with the Giants in New York and then 62 with the Giants in San Francisco. And then. His last, you know, his last shot was 73 with the Mets, a team that got into the World Series, and really nobody really expected to be able to be there and he. You know, was sort of denied greatness or or denied victories in those two World Series first, you know, because just. You know, bad luck. 62 The deciding game was was one to nothing, you know. 

Speaker 

Yeah, right. 

NICK 

He hits a double in the ninth in the bottom of the ninth inning with Mattie Lou at first base. You know, Lou has to stop at. He can't score the tying run and mazes at 2nd, and then Mccovey comes up right after it hits a drive. Five, just a little bit to the side of of Bobby Richardson. Second basement. He grabs it and series is over. It was kind of a swampy. It helped Roger Maris make a relay throw to keep, you know, Mattie Elou from scoring and a lot of things go on that just didn't work out in his favor. 

JOHN 

Unbelievable. 

NICK 

Then in 73. You know, the deciding game is in Oakland. And the Mets had opportunities at other games in that series, too, to win it. Mazes. Remember people? Well, you know, he was stumbling around in the outfield in Oakland. That outfield in Oakland, chalked up by the Raiders playing in that stadium. Oh yeah, was. And you know, it was just awful. I mean, he was lucky to even get through that swamp and get to a baseball, but. You know, so if you don't get those kind of opportunities, if you have, you know there's the Dodgers taking, you know, taking World Series from the Giants, you know, keeping them out of the World Series the Saint. Cardinals doing the same then in other seasons. The Giants not able to develop players. To counter all of that, it that you know that's what happens. 

DON 

What about the situation of of the the trade that finally happens in San Francisco, where they they send him off and they send him off to the Mets? They send him home. Was that intentional? 

NICK 

Yeah, it was. You know the Giants had won the the division title in 71 the year. They had, you know, a couple of young outfielders, you know, Bobby Bonds and then another kid on the other side. Ken Anderson. Were very good. They had. Some rookies coming. Gary Matthews was on his way up and Gary Maddox. Was coming up, you know? So in Mays was at the tail end of his career and everybody knew it. I mean, he's so sort of, you know, and the Mets were terrible. You know the Mets and the Mets needed a little bit of a extra spark. If you look at the stats for maze in that 72 season, after he comes back. To New York, there's a stretch in there. You know you can do it on baseball reference, cause they've got all the game. There's a stretch in there where he's the best hitter on the Mets for a good two months. At his age and you know, and it it even at his sort of diminished skill level, he's still the best player on on that Mets team. And then that that. 73. He didn't play so well, but that team caught fire and he certainly was in the lineup as they went down the stretch, and as he as they as they made the World Series. So yeah, it was kind of a, you know, a thank you a goodbye. You know, kind of the the the Braves did it years later, trading Henry Aaron back to Milwaukee to play with the Brewers. He got a chance to tour all the American League towns too, so that was sort of a nice thing. So. 

DON 

Yeah, and and the, I guess the angels with pool holes, they send him back to Saint. For his last couple years. 

NICK 

They they'll actually the angels cut him. Oh, OK, they they cut him and he ended up. He ended up with the Dodgers. And and it worked out well for the Dodgers, as he was the Dodgers that season. Crazy to say. Best pool holes was the Dodgers best hitter against left hand pitching that season. 

JOHN 

Unbelievable. 

NICK 

Wasn't so. You know, it was tough against righties, but the Dodgers were able to platoon correctly and and when they got him in against left hand pitchers, boy, he just tore them up. Then the next season with the. Same deal. The Cardinals were able to do the same thing. It you know, it helps. By that time, the designated hitter was in, and that helped a lot, too. You know, had had DH been around back in those days. Mays gets more. Maybe he doesn't have to go running out to center field and smashing into fences. And chasing down fly balls that are hit a mile and a half. But. That wasn't how the game was played, and it probably wasn't the way he wanted to play the game either. Today I was thinking about this. He. So he was so good that today you might make him the shortest stop as opposed to having him out in center field. 

JOHN 

Right. 

NICK 

You know, John, you were talking about how could he control a game from center field. He could really have that if he was a shortstop. 

Speaker 

Alright. 

JOHN 

Yep. Yeah. 

NICK 

So you know it's. I'm. I'm just glad and we all should be glad that we were able. See him play. 

JOHN 

When he. He has the second most home. In history, behind only Babe Ruth, he's only 54 behind and we have to. Note here that he missed the most of two seasons right at the beginning of his career serving in the military. 

Speaker 

Yeah. 

JOHN 

And there I think there. Very few people who doubt that, given the way he played right at the beginning of his career, that he would have been. The greatest home run hitter of all time. It's it's today we I think the home run of title has sort of been pooped on a little bit. If not, I don't. Is that is that a technical term? Know that it's, it's. It doesn't mean the same thing anymore. 

DON 

And those exact words to poop, Don. 

Speaker 

But. 

JOHN 

Yeah, yes. But do you feel? 

Speaker 

Boopa. 

JOHN 

Do you feel that, Nick, that you know in some ways we're talking about a guy who probably was the best? Player in history. We've just been talking about how he didn't get a he he got into 4 World Series over 23 years. Not a. And you, you went one for four, which is some people never win one, but still it's it's surprising especially. With the teams he played on, there's sort of a luck factor there also, but you know, do. Feel the same. About the the home run title. Might well have had that. 

NICK 

Yeah. Well, and that was the thinking. I mean, you know, when he got the 500. You know, thinking, you know, you sort of count on your fingers. Like, can he stick around long enough? He you. Is he good? But he had, you know, he had exhausted himself to such a great degree with the way that he played it was. A sort of reckless. There was one season where, you know, he had to check get checked into the hospital for exhaustion because he was so, so tired. Putting so much effort into what he was doing. His good fortune was that he was never to the best of my knowledge, he was never seriously hurt. You know, in the in the kind of thing that would sideline you for two months. You know, he missed that time when you're right, when he missed the time in the military, that was the entire 52 season. 

JOHN 

Yes. 

NICK 

Then a good portion of 53. Before he came back. When he comes back and he plays a full season in 54 years, 54 a month, you know, it's like that's pretty good. So you figure? Yeah, you. So what might he have been able to hit in in that season and 1/2 or season 3 quarters that he missed 45, maybe 50? 

Speaker 

Yeah, yeah. 

NICK 

You know, every all the 60. Know. 

DON 

And it's also that that's that we were talking about Fernando last week. And how? They didn't have a limit on his innings or his pitches. They just threw him out and he did 150 pitches a game in order to win. May's play during that, that. Time in baseball, when you just went out and played and you played and you played and you played. And then you went home and got a, you know, got some sleep and then went out and played again the next. And. Know there weren't trainers to, to the extent that there are now, and there weren't nutritionists and you didn't have all that. Behind. You just you went out and played ball. 

NICK 

Yeah, yeah, he. Very, very few games for I'm looking at it now. From 54 until. 66 He never misses more than 11 games in a season. 

JOHN 

That's unbelievable. 

NICK 

That's the most that he ever that he ever missed. 

DON 

Was that was that 154 game season? 

NICK 

That's it. Well, part of it was. And then part of it was 162 games. Yeah, he's not missing very many games at all. And of course, he's playing an All Star game too. He's playing in all the spring training games so most. 

DON 

And in a few worlds. 

NICK 

Yeah. Yeah. So it's and and he's exhausting himself. 3rd. For the giants. He's up. You know more than just about everybody else in the ball. He's expected to do more than any other team player on the team. Expects another himself too. Yeah, and it's it. It's a workload that that really a few players today can match and stay healthy. That's, you know, I mean. 

DON 

Yeah. 

NICK 

We were here in Southern California, you know, and you know you're in Philadelphia area. Bryce Harper. Tremendous. And he's had to endure a couple of terrible. Mike Trout hasn't played a full season in I don't how long. 

Speaker 

Yes. 

NICK 

It just. It's a really tough game and to endure like that is is remarkable. 

JOHN 

This is a 23 year career. That is a long time in sports. He was not the same player in the last eight years. It can be argued that he, like people like Mansell, played a little tiny bit too long. But as you say at the end of his career he's playing in World Series and and and so. There's that. But we should point out that over that 23 years, he averages over 300. Barely 301, but still over 23 years. Mean it's crazy. He he. Steel spaces at a higher clip than like 75. So, you know, he three out of four, he steals, which is really amazing for a whole career like that. There is to explain this to our audience. There's something called WAR. It's it's. A much, much discussed. Statistic but it's a way of measuring how. A player is. Saying, well, if you take his statistics and you and you put them against a an average player, how many more games did his team win because he was on the team? Well, maze, what led the major leagues in wins against replacement 10 out of his 23 years, that's the first thing which is just ridiculous. Secondly, I think. Up with about 156 games. One against replacement issues. He helped his team win an entire. Seasoned. You know, that's a way of realizing just how much he meant to teams that often were not quite up to his level. And he still played his heart out. You were. 

NICK 

Saying I'm looking at the winds above replacement stat. For his last full season in San Francisco, which was 1971, he's 40 years old. He it wins above replacement. That season is 6.1. He's 5th in the National League at age 40. The only guys that. Are Joe Torrey, who is the MVP, Henry Aaron and Willie Stargell, who are fellow hall of Farmers and **** Allen was playing for the Dodgers. That's it. He's a head of everybody else on his team. He's a head of, you know, Joe Morgan. He's a head of Lou Brock. 6/1 is All Star level well, and of course he was an All Star. That's. There you go at age. At age 40, that's what he's doing. 

JOHN 

It's it's. It's so hard to imagine just so hard to imagine. To think that maize never got badly hurt. In his 23 years, given the way he played his baseball cap, flying off his head. Ryan, I mean, this is the way we think of him and to think that he didn't get hurt very much is amazing. 'cause, you you mentioned Bryce Harper, who plays with the same abandoned. He gets hurt all the time. 

NICK 

Yeah, yeah. Plus the other is Mike Trout. 

DON 

Well, plus the other thing is, yeah, yeah, plus the. 

NICK 

Trout too. Mike. 

DON 

Is what what we mentioned earlier. Bryce Harper. Builder, now that he's getting in his 30s, which is old for a ballplayer, they're moving him over to 1st. They did that a lot with players who played athletic positions like the outfield as they, you know, got into their older years. They were moved to a more state position like first base. Where there's still some athletic ability necessary, but not the flying down the the side of the road. And Mays never took that. 

NICK 

And looking at he he did throwing his career end up playing 8484 games. Add first. I know that they tried moving. In you know for a little bit in 19, I got to find the the stat here 'cause. I remember when it happened in. 6768 they decided, hey, play a little bit of first. I might take some some of the stress and strain off of you, but you didn't take in a heap. Was. Now I'm going back to the outer. Field. So 84 games in team what? 23 years, yeah. 

JOHN 

It's gotta be difficult to tell Willie Mays. Know. Think we'll take you out of the outfield and put you in first, but it's gotta be hard to do that. 

NICK 

Well and and and also when you're still, you're still even, you know, throughout your entire career, you're the best outfielder in baseball. You might as well just leave them there. 

DON 

Yeah, and and and really to step back a ways, it's difficult to look really maze in the face and say, hey, slow down buddy. 

NICK 

Yeah, no. Yeah, yes. 

DON 

Don't play hard. That's that seems an oxymoron in itself right there. 

NICK 

Yeah. Now it's just you know it. It was innate in him. It was the kind of baseball he wanted to play. What he knew how to do. What he. His team didn't need it. And then it's what he. And, you know, fans got a chance to see him on a regular basis to see him in person. You know what? A treat. A treat. You know, it's it's memories that you never forget. I still remember that home. It's still. I gotta, you know, talk to. It's probably tracking that ball still somewhere up there. 

JOHN 

And I think we have to also credit him along with Jackie Robinson and many other players who had played in the ***** leagues and then came across in the first tranche of players to the major leagues. I think we need to credit Willie with bringing a new style. A new. Way of of just going about your business on the field. It. It is flamboyant. But it. It it's not a it's it's not aggressive in the sense of make the other team feel bad. It's just he plays with Spritzatura, with pizazz, with with sparkle and you know his way of of Wheeling and throwing. That, that, real, that whirl and whip which people hadn't seen before, is is, is method of of taking an extra base on a slow. Single to the outfield, these kinds of things. Really sort of revolutionized the way baseball was played because it had gotten into a very Foursquare. Kind of. I'm not saying the players weren't great. Of course they were. But but May's just brought a a new infusion of a different kind of energy. 

NICK 

Yeah, the basket catch in particular. He did it. Very few others have even attempted it, but it was what he knew how to do and and and could pull it off. And he had his reasons for doing it that way. Always said the basket catch. Let him get the ball out of his glove and back to the infield. Where was supposed to be a lot faster, you know? And the proof was he was the best outfielder in baseball. You know, he he. I was looking this up. When you look at the number. Of players that have hit 500 home runs, which is sort of like the benchmark for absolute greatness in base. 

Speaker 

Sure. 

NICK 

Maze comes up in 51. He's one of eight ballplayers who come up in the 50s who end up. 500 home. It's it's the one decade that turns out more 500 home run hitters than any other. 

Speaker 

Amazing. 

NICK 

And you're right, John, because. He those ballplayers changed the way the game is. So you look at the way a game is being played and say the early 50s versus how it's played. 60 S it S It sa completely different ball game. It's. It's a lot. It's flash. Here there's a lot more going on. Credit to those ball players, which would be, you know, Mantel maze, Aaron, Ernie Banks. Eddie Matthews. Frank Robinson. Mccovey and I'm blanking on the last. Oh, Harnam Killebrew is is the other one who comes up in the. And they all hit 500 oh runs, and they're all in the Hall of Fame. They're all the greatest players that that that I ever saw. No, just all of you. 

JOHN 

At a time when pitchers were increasingly getting the upper hand, where, you know, in the rest of the league, batting averages are going down. You see these that that class. 

NICK 

Yeah. 

JOHN 

Maybe they're there will never be another one quite like that. 

Speaker 

Yeah. 

JOHN 

Is an amazing statistic. 

Speaker 

Yeah. 

JOHN 

I the one I'm looking at while you were looking at that one, I was looking at his outfield production. He led the league in assists. Five times he was in double figures all the time with the cyst. Here's the. I think he. Led the league in double plays. From the outfield. 123-4567. In other words, he was just throwing people out at first and second base. All the. And that's that's an astonishing. Astonishing is not only is it a high number, but it's consistent. I'm looking at 9, yeah. 

NICK 

And it makes you wonder, what were those bass runners thinking? What are you doing? 

DON 

Yeah. Do you take that long a lead off of 1st when? Hit it to Willie Nees. 

Speaker 

I I don't think so. 

NICK 

What are? 

JOHN 

I just don't think so. 

NICK 

You my BF. 

DON 

You know, and and we're talking about the the you know the evolution of of hitters like everybody else. We've seen old movies of of players in the 30s and 40s, but when you look at hitters in the 30s and 40s, it looks like they're slapping at the ball. It doesn't look like there's a swing, and when you get into hitters like Ted Williams like Mays and Harmon, Killebrew and Mickey Mantle, you start to see the evolution of a swing. They're making. Decided intentional sort of swing where they're looking at where the ball is coming from and figuring out how to meet it with their back. That to get the most impact out of it and and it just it it. We're talking about the evolution of baseball that that I think that that class was the first one where they were. They were kind of looking for the ball and trying to figure out how to how to work the bat to get that hit. 

NICK 

And and of course you know, I I look this up on the home run log. Mean. It's not like Maze was was hitting off the last guy out of bullpen. He hit his first home run as against Warren Spahn. The Great left hand pitcher. He hits 18 in his career against Warren Spawn. 

JOHN 

Right. 

NICK 

13 against. That's 31 home runs against 2 Hall of farmers, and that doesn't count all the home runs he hit against. You know Robin Roberts or Sandy Koufax or Bob Gibson or Ferguson Jenkins and the only guy who kind of escaped him was was Tom Seaver. But. Anyone else who was a Hall of Famer and who was pitching back in those days? He got him. 

JOHN 

And he. He knew how many he hit off of each. In that interview I mentioned earlier, he talks about well, I only hit. 

NICK 

Yeah. 

JOHN 

Off. Gibson, but I. You got to understand, I hit 13 off of. 

NICK 

Yeah. 

JOHN 

Don Drysdale and he he. Me every time I was up there. 

NICK 

Yeah, you know I that's that's my other clear memory of of Willie Mays, is picking himself up out of the dust after, you know. Well, after Drysdale, you know, knocked him down so. 

JOHN 

Well, Nick, you know once again. Such a pleasure to have you with us. You know so much and you felt so much and it's obviously you love this player and and this game. And so we wanted to say Happy New Year. It's coming up Merry Christmas. You for. 

NICK 

Thanks. 

JOHN 

Being with us for this year and thank you for letting us meditate on the greatest baseball player. Ever lived? 

NICK 

Well, spring training is not far away. 

DON 

Pitchers attaches report. All I want for Christmas is spring training, right? 

NICK 

I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. We'll be, you know, it'll be pictures and catches after report within about 3 months from now. I'm. I'm waiting.