The Musical Innertube - Volume 2, Number 158 - Fran Metzman

JOHN

Award-winning author Frances Metzman had her smiling face splashed across a great big billboard in Times Square, New York City, recently, all about her new novel, The Cha-Cha Babes Dance With The Devil. It's a tale of two seriously brave and crazy women as they try to crack an international slavery ring while hiding deep in the bowels of a Philadelphia hospital - as one does. Fran is a fiction editor for Schuylkill Valley Journal and a freelance editor. She has published numerous short stories, essays, articles, interviews, three novels, and a short story collection. Her novels The Cha-Cha Babes of Pelican Way and The Cha-Cha Babes Dance With The Devil were best sellers on Amazon in 2019 and in 2023, respectively. She teaches creative writing and memoir at Temple University's OLL I program. Frances Metzman, you are our guest today on the musical inner tube. Welcome, Fran.

FRAN

Hi friend!

JOHN

Introduce us to the Cha-Cha Babes, Celia and Marcy. I'd like to get a little bit of their back story. A lot of people who will read this new book, The Cha-cha Babes Dance With The Devil, may not have read the first crazy novel, The Cha-cha Babes Of Pelican Way. Talk about Celia and Marcy. What are they doing in Philly and so forth and so on?

FRAN

OK, they do have history. Both women met at a gated community in Florida, where, as older boomers they wanted to start new lives. Both have very dysfunctional backgrounds and were in the face of trying to recover. Celia, who is the main character, had a very insulated life, controlling parents, emotionally distant, and went into a marriage pretty much the same way, the same kind of environment which we often do, marry our parents.   I felt that these women - as I get older, I find women's friendships very, very important, more important by the day. You know, we do have family. We love them. They're part of our lives. They come first. But secondarily, and a close second, are these friendships. And so, in this community, they meet. In the first novel, there was another woman who was a little bit more frail than these two, but they all met dancing Cha-Cha, learning how to Cha-Cha. And that's where we get this, you know, Florida Cha-Cha kind of vibe. But they want to discover themselves, they want to start new lives. They're outliers in these communities. I've been in several of these gated communities in Florida, and there are cliques. So, because there's a certain independence and because they don't follow the unwritten laws of behavior for women, they're kind of kept out of the mainstream. And actually, they’re  treated meanly. So, these women in their quest to discover who they are, how they will manage this new life, how they can get out of the past egg shell that they've lived in – Marcy, the secondary character, also, she had abusive parents, so here they have this connection of abusive backgrounds or dysfunctional backgrounds, whatever you want to call it. And they're both struggling to find new ways of communicating and finding a happy way of life. So they also wind up getting into a lot of trouble. They are magnets for difficulties. So in the in the first novel, they wind up in this series of deaths that they find suspicious. But I'll talk about what happens in Dance With The Devil, because that's kind of foremost right now. And Dance With The Devil, Deb, for reasons you will know when you read the first book Of Pelican Way, is not in this book. She'll come back in the third. But these women again haven't really quite progressed the way they wanted to. They did grow, develop, sleuthing talent. So now they wind up at a bar. Marcy has a big mouth. She's the sexy one, and she gets them into trouble because the atmosphere of this bar - they're on their way to Celia's daughters house for a visit in Philadelphia - but at this bar, Marcy takes what Celia says about the odd thing, young, very young women, gorgeous women with men who are in their pinstripes, business suits, with their accounts, you know, buying food and lobsters. But the women looked dazed and Celia notices that one is kind of almost dragged to the elevator of this boutique hotel within the bar. So, Marcy opens her mouth to the bartenders, who are obviously giving numbers out to these men, fixing them up. The women are obviously drugged. And they drug these two women. Next thing, they wake up, they're in the mess of a huge, haunted almost mansion.

JOHN

These are our heroines, right? These are our heroines, Cecilia and Marcy, right? They get drugged.

FRAN

They get drugged, yes, because Marcy, who has a big mouth in her head, and her tongue, got them into trouble. So, they wake up in a serious situation. They're tied to chairs and they are approached by a guy who calls himself a mafia boss, and says, you know, tells them that he's a big owner of sex slaves. And they make, well, there's about 150 billion a year worldwide, but that's not the exact amount, lot of cash. So, they're told that they have to be madams, which really means spies for the women. And children. The children can be as young as four or three. It doesn't matter. They’re prizes in this in this sex trafficking, it's a horrible, really horrible thing. I read an article about it a number of years ago and never forgot it. But talking to people over the years, you realize nobody really knows the depth of this. Where women are transferred in containers on ships, with very little air and food, and they have been tattooed on the back of their necks so that they're identified as to which mafia group they belong to. This is the one, the area that this worldwide mafia conglomeration, where it’s one of the only times they all cooperate with each other. Yes, we get the Jeffrey Epsteins. To me, in my opinion, although they do a tremendous amount of damage, they're small potatoes in this giant scheme that we never hear about.

JOHN

Fran, you've answered my second question, which is - no, it's good. Yeah, it's great. So, Celia and Marcy – we're not going to give everything away - but Celia and Marcy land in the midst of slave trafficking, international slave trafficking. You've named an incredible figure of 150 billion at least that this industry earns, if you'll use the word for it, throughout the world. How did you first learn - one of the things about this novel is that it's really topical in this sense. It really gives us an insight into how these men, mostly, find and capture and kidnap and traffic the women that they do, How did you first come upon your knowledge of all this?

FRAN

I think I have to attribute it to my background of knowing people, professional people, high executives, businesspeople, who committed white collar crime when they don't have to, because they can earn a great deal of money. I've known some, some I've known tangentially. One of them was my husband's friend, so..

JOHN

See, I was just going to ask you if you'd been a professional sleuth yourself.

FRAN

Well, at least from a distance. If I could turn any of them in, I would, but they kind of, you know, they make the kind of mistakes that get them caught. You know, I'm talking about doctors, lawyers, insurance executives, a man who inherited his huge business, no need to commit fraud. But there's some psychological need for power. Maybe over people. So that's what got me started. I checked, I read about it, I became obsessed about it, wanting to know the reasons they do it. And I happened on sex trafficking. That really drew me in. It was so abhorrent, you know, that they take women from poverty-ridden countries, promise them jobs and then, they make them, they kidnap them and keep them in these apartments and houses as slaves. They're in massage parlors, they're distributed all over. They're at sports events, they're brought in groups to sports events. It's a big, big business, and the only thing - I don't mind prostitution, fine, make it legal. But these women are captured and they are clearly slaves.

JOHN

It’s definitely a women's rights issue.

FRAN

Yeah, it is indeed. So that's how I came upon it, and I stayed with it. I kept looking. I kept asking people, do you know about? No, no, it's not here. You know, kind of thing. You know, we have big hubs. California, Florida, Texas.

JOHN

Ha ha.

FRAN

And Philadelphia is no slouch. We have the harbor, we get the containers. They're X-rayed. Somehow they seem to - I'm not making any accusations, maybe it's accidental - they get missed, or else they've arranged the items inside so that the women are hidden. They have it down to a science, and they're brought in. And here in this country, the kids coming out of foster care, who have aged out, they're a great target, because they have no home, they have no skills, and they become enslaved as well. Children, very young children. So I mean, it really got to me. It really was so upsetting.

JOHN

So all the all the time we've been talking about this, your editor, Joy Stocke, has been listening at the United Lounge at O'Hare airport, Chicago. And Joy, when you first learned what Fran was going to write about in this follow up novel to the first Cha-Cha Babes book, what did you think? What went through your mind?

JOY

Well, you know Fran and I have been friends and partners in crime for over - and I shouldn't say how long, but that's how long it is. And so, Fran is really an interesting person. She's always writing about something. But this topic unnerved me a little. And the reason is if you're going to put it into a novel, it's a really serious topic. I know our Cha-Cha Babes. How was she gonna pull this one off? You know, how can you, ‘cause her books have a lot of humor in it. That is one of Fran's talents, is to take something and not make it funny in the sense of we're making fun of something, but to give us a little levity, I think that's  Fran's real gift. So, the question was, how was Fran going to pull that off? And what was the writing process going to be, and it was a long process, I will say.

JOHN

Right. And there's so many different scenes and different facets of the industry that have to be addressed if you're going to give a persuasive picture of it. It's not the kind of thing, it's really not the kind of thing you can sort of do an outline of and make it work in fiction. You're going to have to, right? It's going to have to live somehow.

FRAN

I deliberately did not want it documentary style where I'm just. Preaching, you know I needed these women to be real in a real situation where they go into hiding and they still have families, the daughter becomes involved, her romantic interest becomes involved, and they're living in the hideout, I won't tell you where the hideout is, or what it is, but it is different. And so, they needed to have some levity, a little dark humor if you will, and relationships - they still have families, they still have memories of the past. You know, it's not like people go into a bad situation and are kind of isolated, and just only think about their problems. They have a life. They had a life. And so that kind of continues and that's what I wanted. Friendship, family, older romance. So it kind of connect to being in this difficult situation.

JOHN

Don, how about you ask a question for a moment?

DON

Fran, when I read the books - I read both of the novels back-to-back - and subject matter in both is very serious, but the overlying setup is very much like something that you would see on TV. OK, I'm going to come right out and say it, I had Golden Girls on my mind the whole time I was reading the book.

FRAN

The Golden Girls? Maybe somewhere in my unconscious. You never know with writing what comes out. Sometimes you say, who wrote that? And, there's the channeling when you write as far as I'm concerned. I mean, I've always thought of it as a channeling. Once you get into that rhythm, into your unconscious, which in a way is like cheap therapy, you know, that's what the Freudian therapy is always trying to do. You can do it by writing..

DON

Also, in both books there is - you had mentioned earlier about research. There is an awful lot, about of a huge variety of things. In the in the first book, there's references to medical and financial and police procedure. And in this one here, there's obviously more police procedure, but also a little bit of a taste of the underworld, if you will. How did your research bring you to those topics and ways to flesh out the novel?

FRAN

Oh, that's a giant question.

DON

That's OK. We'll take a giant answer.

FRAN

I was raised in South Philadelphia so - not that, you know, the sections were very divided by religion. You know you're the Italian section, Jewish section, but we knew about the mafia.  At that time, they had not bought maybe a lot of mansions, and they were in South Philly. Maybe the lower-level mafia. So, I had that kind of mental connection.  This I feel sure about. My background over the years, I came from a poor background into an upper middle-class background. My husband was a physician. We lived in maybe, you know, a more expensive location. So, I come from both sides, in a way. What shocked me is when I was poor, I didn't hear about any kind of white-collar crime, we admired even the real estate agents. We thought that they were big deals. I come into this new world, where there are upper middle-class people and they're committing all kinds of white-collar crime. Not all, of course. I once sat down and figured out I either knew or was slightly familiar with 26 people that had committed white-collar crime. Some just had their licenses, you know, taken away and then given back. But my shock, this culture shock, let me into this world of why do they do it? I asked someone - my husband's friend - and he said I don't know. And rich, as I mean, he could buy the Rittenhouse square out. Had a yacht and whatnot, and he didn't know why he did it. He had committed little crimes along the way until the major one got him into Allenwood. So, it's that kind of what is going on here? I mean...

JOHN

Sure. It's so interesting that you say this because it wasn't until I started working in Philadelphia myself that I got to know and be pretty chummy with people who later I found out, were doing the kinds of things you're talking about. I don't know whether it's Philadelphia or whether this is just life as lived, that there are people all around us, and we can't know which of us are being white-collar criminals, you know. I guess most of them don't get caught, but those who do, it makes the papers, and it does seem like a very pervasive kind of crime. And white-collar crime is involved in trafficking because it's the source of the monetary backing. It's the source of the finances. It's sort of the sluiceway, as you show, for the money. So, what we're looking at is the dark underbelly, if you will, of white-collar crime.

FRAN

Right. And that's what fascinated me and brought me to this more serious subject. That but still, there are people who, you know - they kind of make a decision, they can go back to Florida.

JOHN

Yeah, Celia and Marcy can. And actually, I was going to ask you that question, is, they have a choice. Actually, they could say the heck with this, I'm going back to Florida, and I think it's interesting how you handle that. Please tell us a little more.

FRAN

Yeah. They talk about it. They're on the run. But they're so pulled by this world that they've discovered of sex trafficking and what part sometimes women might play as - what do they call them? The groomers, groomers who are spying on these women to find out who's plotting to leave, and you know, they're so appalled by it that they do have this - they are women who trust each other, they have a great, they have each other's backs. They care about each other, they care about truth. They do have good qualities that make them decide to find some justice. They know they can't cure it. They're not going to be able to get more than a little tiny scratch. But they decide that they really want to help these people whatever by exposing it, and they stay and find a place to hide and then go through their sleuthing to find out who these people are. And strangely enough, one of the mafia people happens to be close to their hiding place, not knowing. And so, they're able to do, and they're able to use - Celia's romantic interest has joined them, and he is a high-tech person, so he helps them, teaches them about computers. They do a lot of research like I had to do. So, I punished them, I made them do the research, too! Then stay on that computer and so, they do it out of the goodness of their hearts, that this is too big, and too debilitating and dehumanizing. And so, then they're not quite like The Golden Girls in that sense, although the Golden Girls did have big hearts and help people.

DON

The other thing, too, is that these ladies, as you said, have a lifetime behind them. Of really not doing much other than being housewives and mothers and that sort of thing. And now they are, for all intents and purposes, free and on their own. And they're kind of reveling in it. But they are ordinary people, and they make decisions, very deliberate decisions, to put themselves in harm's way. So that's kind of, I don't know, an interesting point to that, and that is that they don't necessarily have skills. It's not like Colombo going out with “detective knowledge” or anything like that. These are just ordinary people that throw themselves on the railroad tracks and hope for the best.

FRAN

A little, a little unbelievable maybe, is that?

DON

I don't know if it's unbelievable because they don't necessarily show any real superpowers if you will, or that kind of thing. But they do go through a litany of, like you said, they do the research and they they're very deliberate in how they take down the criminals in both your books. So, they sort of use logic, if you will.

FRAN

Right.

DON

As opposed to anything really spectacular. And that sort of says something, too, about the characters.

FRAN

Yeah, I that's one of the, that is kind of, in a way, deliberate. Because these women are coming from an era, you know, before women's lib, you know, or on the edge of women's lib. But they were both so hurt by backgrounds. They followed the rules, they tried to follow the rules, women's role. Not that they were, their smarts never came out because - you know, I remember reading a long time ago in a magazine, a women's magazine, “Don't let him know you can do math. Don't beat him at tennis,” you know. Seriously, I did read this, you know, “make a little cocoon when he comes home from work.”  I am partially, I started in the world this way, in many ways, and so I wanted to show how women can become powerful, how they can develop on their own once they realize that they've been isolated and insulated and that they have the smarts. It's just been smothered. That's what women did. They smothered their smarts. And this is a development. They're now friends. They help each other get more powerful. They have each other's backs, they work together, and they do become women of intelligence, and good sense, and finding justice, and charitable. So that was an intent.

JOHN

Sure, of course.

FRAN

Evolved from that era, you know?

JOHN

You're getting back.

FRAN

I made the mark.

JOHN

You're using art to get your revenge, Fran. This is what it is.

DON

Maybe a little wish fulfillment too, you know. You never know.

FRAN

Yep. There's a lot of layers in here, and when we write, a lot of layers, and so as I said - down there in that unconscious, we're bringing it out right here.

JOHN

What are you going to do for your next Cha-Cha Babes book? I really have to ask. I know you don't want to let the cat out of the bag just yet, but I'd just like to know where Celia and Marcy will head off to next.

FRAN

OK, they go back to Florida, and Deb joins them. And there is a very specific reason why she was not in the second book, which you have to read the first book to find out. So, they're now in Florida, and you see the interaction of the three women. Deb, the most potent muscle she has is her tongue, she and Marcy kind of taunt each other in a playful way. And they join a non-religious group that has gotten together, they're mostly upper, middle-class, and they want a community of people who want justice. It's just up their alley, you know. And not that the group does all that much, but they try. They try. They want diversity, yet the group’s kind of solidly white. But the intent of this group appeals to them. They stand up, they talk about what's bothering them, what they like. They can make concessions. Everybody gets a chance to speak to this group. You can be religious, doesn't matter. You're welcome. You can hold on to your own religion, so that's maybe all I'm going to tell you, and there's a lot of mystery and secret.

JOHN

Well, Fran Metzman, you are our favorite octogenarian novelist and - I'll say the list isn't that long. In fact, you are the list. You are the one octogenarian novelist that we've had on this podcast, and you're the best one. And you're our favorite one. And we thank you for coming on the Musical Innertube. We also thank your editor, Joy Stocke, who called us all the way from Chicago, she's about to get on a plane, I think. She's getting on right now, and she really wanted to be part of this, as she was for a bit. So, we thank her for being on here. And when you get that next book out, and your face is once again in lights in Times Square, we'll have you back on!

FRAN

Even if I'm 90, right?

JOHN

Yes!  Doesn’t matter!

DON

Then you'll be our favorite nonagenarian author.

FRAN

I love it!

DON

Goes that way.

FRAN

Well, that's great. Yeah. A friend of mine, when I had my birthday wrote to me and said, I know how old you are - because we went all the way back - and I said, are you kidding? The world knows how old I am because, just Google it! Everybody's name is on there.

JOHN

You can ask Alexa, you can ask Alexa, you know, and she'll tell you how old your friends are. Oh, yeah, I've done that.

FRAN

Really.

JOHN

I like Alexa because when I last asked her, she said John Timpane is 39.

DON

So, the so the bribery paid off. Yeah. OK, here's something you probably don't know, but when you get the little, if you're on Facebook and you get the little notification that it's your friend's birthday, they tell you on Facebook how old the friend is. So...

FRAN

Really?

JOHN

Beware of that!

FRAN

How do you, how do you find that? You go in there?

DON

No, it just says John Timpane is having a birthday, and up in the corner it says he's 850 years old. Or whatever the actual the actual number is. So just be aware of that when you go on Facebook.

JOHN

Both in the fact that you've written these novels and that your characters are women “of a certain age,” as they might say in Paris, but do do things that do change things around them. They don't, they don't change the world en masse, because that's not what we're up to, they're trying to save a few women, and risk their necks doing so. And that's what makes Cha-cha Babes Dance With The Devil so much fun. So, thank you for being on the Musical Innertube Fran Metzman.

FRAN

Yeah. You're very welcome. Just a quick little note. That's really why I wanted to write about older women. To show the older population don't sit on your butts and be a couch potato. Get out there. There's so much to learn and do. I mean, it just keeps your - hopefully it's going to help with Alzheimer's, that I don't get it too bad. Yeah, but it was really also in the back of my mind that, come on, you don't have to follow all the rules and regulations, and older people have to keep, you know, not be politically too outlandish. Do it, do it. That's my last note.

DON

Thank you very much, Fran.

FRAN

Thank you, guys, thank you so much! And on my birthday, we’ll have another interview, and you can have a cake for me.

JOHN

Okay, deal!

FRAN

Or champagne.

DON

Or both.

FRAN

Or both! Yes! Definitely!